Curse

xChaoSx · Jun 06, 2005, 12:53 AM // 00:53

stop whining about this and start whining about minion spam!:P And then whatever is next after that

Virtuoso · Jun 06, 2005, 01:18 AM // 01:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by RepinsMirg

They keep posting because of someone like you who seems to be traumatized over this from the Beta when there was obviously some stacking issues with fertile seasons. News flash for you though this has been fixed sense last patch so I really have no clue why you are being such a pissant over the spamming of spirits.

Actually, I am talking about after they fixed the Fertile Seasons stacking, which was earlier in Beta and wasn't fixed "last patch." Please, show me where it was fixed in the patch notes. http://guildwars.com/news/gameupdates.html

I'm being a "pissant?" Jesus, are you 12? News Flash, get a clue, and then talk.

I'm tired of peoples' ignorance. People like you, who think they have some sort of clue what they're talking about, when in fact they have no evidence to back up their claims.

Like I said earlier in the thread, I really hope someone starts exploiting this to it's fullest. Why hasn't that happend yet? Because it's boring and takes a long time to do. Still, I can't wait for this to be fixed so I can come back to this thread and laugh in your face.

-Virt

Studio Ghibli · Jun 06, 2005, 02:06 AM // 02:06

He has a point, Virt.

You are being a pretty huge ass over this.

RepinsMirg · Jun 06, 2005, 02:24 AM // 02:24

Feel free to laugh if it happens but I'm not the one throwing a temper tantrum like a 12 year old and wasn't the post before the last suppose to be the last one in this thread?

Virtuoso · Jun 06, 2005, 02:34 AM // 02:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by RepinsMirg

Feel free to laugh if it happens but I'm not the one throwing a temper tantrum like a 12 year old and wasn't the post before the last suppose to be the last one in this thread?

Got proven wrong? I'm sorry.

-Virt

Moskel · Jun 06, 2005, 03:00 AM // 03:00

I just have one thing to say, 'Hahahahahhahahahahahahahhahahahahahhaa.....'.

Ok maybe one more thing, Rock > Scissors > Paper > Rock > ...

ElevenBravo · Jun 06, 2005, 01:57 PM // 13:57

Well said. My point exactly. Congrats though on your "inventive" spamming technique. Im sure that took, what, a whole 5 minutes to think up?

My guild doesnt use a heavy air elem build so Im not complaining that we lost because of that. We only had 1 air elem I think during our match against you, maybe 2.

And I dont mind losing. We lose alot we win alot. We lose to alot of different builds, we lose to body blocking on King of the Hill, Im not complaining about those thing either.

Im just saying, your build is bad for pvp and I dont think the dev teams intention was to have players spam so many spirits. I have nothing against using spirits. Because what happens is people see you build and how effective it is and copy it. Then you have 2 team on the same map spamming spirits everywhere. Then guild wars turns into Spirit Wars. Its just the shear number of them that are being used.

You know what it reminds me of? If any of you have ever played Star Wars Galaxies, it reminds me of the game in early stages when you could have 2 large pets, 2 at-st, a droid and you have 1 man walking army who could take on anything. You go to pvp 1 guy and POOF, all of a sudden he has all these NPC's that end up killing you, not him.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Virtuoso

Let me see if I can find roll eyes smiley big enough...

They did this to counter the "lightning spammers?" Yeah, my foot. Regarding the spamming EoE, that doesn't stop the lightning spammers as they do not kill enough people at the same time. Only AoEs would be able to kill enough people at the same time to set off the EoE chain reaction.

Regarding what other posters and myself are talking about, that build doesn't counter the "lightning spammers" build either. It counters ANY build. They sit there and do nothing, while shouting profanities and insults, waiting for you to quit.

To all of you who seem to think that this guild are the first to think of this, let's just get one thing straight. They are not the first to do this and they are not "original" in the least bit. Spamming these nature rituals has been a common occurance ever since nature rituals were given "spirits" instead of just effects that covered the entire map.

Nature rituals in their current form were implimented too late in the beta and were not watched carefully enough. Some of them can be used to create very abusive situations.

I mean, seriously... some of you are saying this build or thinking up this build takes skill? Give me a break. It involves spamming ONE skill over and over and over again. Yeah, tons of skill. Atleast the "air elemental spam" takes multiple spells and massive co-ordination. Not to mention the fact that it is easily countered.

[Edit: To those of you who say this doesn't work; Want to test this theory? Get yourself 2 monks and 2 rangers and hit up the Team Arenas. Make sure you give yourself a lot of time, though, as the matches are going to last as long as the other team feels like staying in the game.]

-Virt

Xellos · Jun 06, 2005, 07:07 PM // 19:07

Glad to see people aren't whining about Air Eles now in tombs

Ensign · Jun 06, 2005, 09:32 PM // 21:32

So, um, you guys are unable to win with Fertile Season up?

OMG NERF.

Peace,
-CxE

BBrecht · Jun 06, 2005, 10:28 PM // 22:28

I for one am glad that the KCHS have been using this team build, as it really serves to demonstrate that this game isn't Everquest, and that it pays to break out of the tank/nuke/heal mindset.

Nature rituals have, in my opinion, been one of the great overlooked skill types by the majority of the community. One look at Frozen Soil should be enough for it to be considered a must in any group PvP build, but players choose not even to acknowledge its existence due to the fact that it doesn't heal or deal damage, and doesn't have huge numbers attatched to it.

The nature rituals should really be a part of any team PvP - you should find a ritual that complements your build moreso than that of your expected opponent, and play it so that the battle is being fought on your terms. A great example would be Winnowing in a melee-heavy team, Winter in a team wearing cold-attuned armour, or Nature's Renewal in a team without hexes or enchantments (which isn't that hard to build - use wards for defense, monks use straight heals, mesmers use energy drains and signets rather than domination to lockdown casters). And yet, because of, I dunno, naiveté as to how the game's played ("Tombs group looking for tanks and healers!"), or simple posturing and bravado ("Dude, rangers suck - they don't deal any damage!"), these immensely useful skills have largely been overlooked by the community.

Honestly, I can't believe that the use of nature rituals is even being debated - to me it sounds like a bunch of "L337" PvPers pissing and whining that someone's playing the game the way it's meant to be played, and coordinating a team to use all the skills available to them in very beneficial ways.

Shrapnel_Magnet · Jun 06, 2005, 10:56 PM // 22:56

If anything, this guild isn't using this build to its maximum effectivenes. This is hardly spamming rituals if only ONE player is doing it. You are all aware that these rituals are a five second cast with a large downtime unless you're running Serpent's Quickness + Quickening Zephyr (not 100% sure if they stack, but they probably do) or Oath Shot... even then, Oath Shot has like a 20 second recharge. Why isn't someone chasing this ritualist down and interrupting him?

But yeah... I'm not seeing how this build of supposed Ritual Spamming even works. I looked at the Screen Shot and saw Winnowing, Nature's Renewal, Fertile Season, Quickening Zephyr, and Frozen Soil... Winnowing is a big waste of space and I won't be convinced otherwise... read the skill description, look at the cast time, laugh and then never look again.

The other ones... I GUESS you could build something that made use of these skills. Personally, I expected to see Energizing Winds and/or Predatory Season. Either way, like I said before, with ONE ritualist... what were the other teams doing? One ritualist is a blessing. Now, if they had like three ritualists, that'd be dastardly, because you couldn't interrupt... however, that would come at the cost of damage... so it's hard to say.

I do hear that Nature's Renewal is bugged though and that it's range is a lot greater than intended... perhaps I hear wrong.

The reason, in my opinion, why Nature's Renewal is the MOST dangerous ritual is because it can go undetected. Plant one in your base and wait for the enemy to walk into it. Sure they might be Tabbing through targets but it can sneak up on you. Unlike Well of the Profane, you can't see the radius of the Ritual. By the time you see it, it's too late. Not only that, but it's effects are arguably the longest lasting. Walking out of a Fertile Season restores your health and armour to its normal level... in fact, all of the rituals are like this except Nature's Renewal.

Once you lose that Enchantment, it's gone. If you leave the Radius, it's still gone. You'll have to recast all the enchantments you're team is running... a nice counter to enchantments sure, but if it IS bugged, that's not good.

Mumblyfish · Jun 06, 2005, 11:08 PM // 23:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shrapnel_Magnet

If anything, this guild isn't using this build to its maximum effectivenes. This is hardly spamming rituals if only ONE player is doing it.

More than one person laying rituals really cut into the killing speed. This team needs to kill things, and fast, hence only one ritualist. With a little fiddling around with skills, it's entirely possible to have one person handle all the ritual laying (against most teams).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shrapnel_Magnet

Why isn't someone chasing this ritualist down and interrupting him?

Because they're not thinking.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shrapnel_Magnet

But yeah... I'm not seeing how this build of supposed Ritual Spamming even works.

The characters in our team all benefit from the rituals laid. They're set up in such a way that there's no drawbacks. Winnowing is useful because six of the eight players use physical damage. That's +4 damage per swing on six players. It's not a fantastic ritual that entirely changes the state of play (such as Nature's Renewal, or Edge of Extinction) but we do benefit. Energising Winds would be harmful to us, and only serve to help Elementalists. Predatory Season simply doesn't work because the 5 health per hit doesn't stack up to the 20% healing benefit. Since this team is really light on healing in favour of offense, cutting down on healing any more is a no-go.

Virtuoso · Jun 06, 2005, 11:10 PM // 23:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

So, um, you guys are unable to win with Fertile Season up?

OMG NERF.

Peace,
-CxE

Thank you for your wonderful, insightful reply.

-Virt

Shrapnel_Magnet · Jun 06, 2005, 11:16 PM // 23:16

Sure, Winnowing offers SOME benefit, but it's cast time and skill slot far outweighs +24 damage spread over 6 players. I won't speculate on how your team was set up (in terms of skills and how you benefited from the rits), but Winnowing was a wasted skill slot and I'd be suprised if it wasn't swapped out on your Ranger for even something like Whirling Defense (since your character is more of a "trapper" essentiall) to avoid enemy ranger or warrior disruption.

I only said Predatory Season because I saw Winnowing in there so I figured you guys were just putting up whatever rituals you guys had. I can see Energizing Winds helping but only if your team was also designed around it, which obviously wasn't the case.

RandomEngy · Jun 06, 2005, 11:48 PM // 23:48

It's funny, because our ritualist is considering dropping Winnowing for some more defensive skills, and I think he's going to do it. He started off going ritual crazy (I think he had 8 to start) but we've been narrowing down to the ones that benefit us most. And yes, Quickening Zepher is the first ritual put down, so all the others recharge quickly. We have another ranger with another copy of Nature's Renewal and Oath Shot so we can make sure that one stays up, and put lots of copies down during battle to get rid of all enchants and hexes periodically.

Siran Dunmorgan · Jun 07, 2005, 12:14 AM // 00:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Virtuoso

Let me see if I can find roll eyes smiley big enough...

...

Regarding what other posters and myself are talking about, that build doesn't counter the "lightning spammers" build either. It counters ANY build. They sit there and do nothing, while shouting profanities and insults, waiting for you to quit.

...

And this is bad, why, exactly? A win is a win. Period. The ladder doesn't care if you and everyone you know and the horse you ride in on are major-league twits. It cares if you won. And, according to Sun Tzu, the height of generalship is to achieve victory without fighting, at which this strategy seems to excel.

In the old days, before release, it was the case that folks would debate whether the game required skill, and, in general, those who felt that it did not failed to consider the strategy that takes place off the battlefield. But, as we have seen over and over again, the build you take in is perhaps the principal determining factor of success or failure, as it often is in life itself: this is part of the "War" aspect of Guild Wars, as opposed to the "battle" aspect, where so much attention is focused, and it requires no less skill.

If a commander or strategist in a real army came up with a strategy that achieved victory by having green troops sit in their barracks and occasionally shout profanities and insults at the enemy, the commanders of legend, from Sun Tzu and Pericles to Napoleon and Rommel—and, yea, Alexander himself—would rise from their graves to do him homage.

But here? Here there are those who find such a victory in some sense demeaning, as if their world is tainted by the notion that battles can be won by those with less than elite training. For myself, I'm constantly looking for builds that require as little skill as possible, with the earliest and easiest acquired skills in the game—not to 'grief' the other side into quitting, though the psychological victory is one of the easiest to achieve, but because there are a lot more newcomers[1] than there are elite players in this game, and the newcomers deserve more respect than they have been given by the more vocal elite community.

It's not easy, coming up with a build that complete newcomers could actually use to take the Hall, and I applaud the Kansas City Hotsteppers[2] for actually using one, though I acknowledge that they are not, for the most part, newcomers to the game.

—Siran Dunmorgan

[1] Not 'n00bs'. I abhor Internet jargon. I accept it from others—it's their language too, after all—but I abstain from its use myself.

[2] Have you let the folks at Penny Arcade know about your Hall victory? It's the sort of thing they'd mention in their daily posts, you know.

Eclair · Jun 07, 2005, 01:21 AM // 01:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siran Dunmorgan

And this is bad, why, exactly? A win is a win. Period. The ladder doesn't care if you and everyone you know and the horse you ride in on are major-league twits. It cares if you won. And, according to Sun Tzu, the height of generalship is to achieve victory without fighting, at which this strategy seems to excel.

In the old days, before release, it was the case that folks would debate whether the game required skill, and, in general, those who felt that it did not failed to consider the strategy that takes place off the battlefield. But, as we have seen over and over again, the build you take in is perhaps the principal determining factor of success or failure, as it often is in life itself: this is part of the "War" aspect of Guild Wars, as opposed to the "battle" aspect, where so much attention is focused, and it requires no less skill.

If a commander or strategist in a real army came up with a strategy that achieved victory by having green troops sit in their barracks and occasionally shout profanities and insults at the enemy, the commanders of legend, from Sun Tzu and Pericles to Napoleon and Rommel—and, yea, Alexander himself—would rise from their graves to do him homage.

But here? Here there are those who find such a victory in some sense demeaning, as if their world is tainted by the notion that battles can be won by those with less than elite training. For myself, I'm constantly looking for builds that require as little skill as possible, with the earliest and easiest acquired skills in the game—not to 'grief' the other side into quitting, though the psychological victory is one of the easiest to achieve, but because there are a lot more newcomers[1] than there are elite players in this game, and the newcomers deserve more respect than they have been given by the more vocal elite community.

It's not easy, coming up with a build that complete newcomers could actually use to take the Hall, and I applaud the Kansas City Hotsteppers[2] for actually using one, though I acknowledge that they are not, for the most part, newcomers to the game.

—Siran Dunmorgan

[1] Not 'n00bs'. I abhor Internet jargon. I accept it from others—it's their language too, after all—but I abstain from its use myself.

[2] Have you let the folks at Penny Arcade know about your Hall victory? It's the sort of thing they'd mention in their daily posts, you know.

Bravo~!

BBrecht · Jun 07, 2005, 01:52 AM // 01:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shrapnel_Magnet

Why isn't someone chasing this ritualist down and interrupting him?

Lol, noob, you need to gank the monks first, rofl, etc...

Ensign · Jun 07, 2005, 03:30 AM // 03:30

I fail to see how any comment, no matter how inane, can be out of place on a thread that effectively boils down to 'my build loses to Fertile Season'.

Any spirit that a build wishes to run *needs* to be spammed. A single spirit is far too unreliable to keep up consistently. This is the biggest flaw with the ritual mechanic, that without extraordinary means (Zephyr + Quickness + Oath Shot) rituals are short term stopgaps at best. This is acceptable for something like Nature's Renewal, but not for rituals you want to build around. You need at least two, and preferably 3 copies of any nature ritual if you want it to have a consistent, lasting effect.

Rituals are incredibly easy to disrupt. If your build has serious issues with a ritual, find the guy casting it and assign someone to babysit him. Interrupts recycle faster than rituals. Similarly, rituals are soft, and you can knock off several of them quickly if you dedicate yourself.

A target is going to go down if you incapacitate Monks, Fertile Season or no.

Fertile Season matches are not sprints. They cannot be played as sprints. The skill is a natural counter to damage spikes, and as such is a great skill to run in this environment. It's an outstanding skill against the standard 'wait until the 2 minute mark and gank the hero' strategy. It's a powerful ritual that forces both teams to play the slow game. That's the entire point of the skill.

It has been nerfed heavily since its original incarnation, and from where I'm sitting it's a perfectly reasonable skill now. The biggest problem with the skill is the mentality shown in the post directly above this one, the unwillingness of people to alter their strategies and tactics in response to battlefield conditions. Anyone unable or unwilling to do so does not deserve a win.

Maybe if people got out of their single minded 'Warriors and Elementalists and Monks and NO ONE ELSE' mindset and ran some Rangers and Mesmers, they might see just how beatable Fertile Season is. But in the meantime we get threads like this one.

Peace,
-CxE

BBrecht · Jun 07, 2005, 03:45 AM // 03:45

Bravo, Ensign, you've elucidated far more effectively than I ever could. Hopefully such clarity will continue to flourish within the GW community, and over the months we'll begin to see fewer threads like this emerging.